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IRMA

Expert in dilly-dallying
Articles Posted: 27  Links Seeded: 1414
Member Since: 3/2006  Last Seen: 4/09/2012

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Presbyterians Think Of Changing 'Father, Son, Holy Spirit'

Seeded on Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:26 AM EDT
Read ArticleArticle Source: ksat.com
religion, christianity, gender, theology, trinity, presbyterian-church, divine-trinity, gender-inclusive-language, presbytarians
Seeded by Irma
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-- The divine Trinity -- "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" -- could also be known as "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Redeemer, Friend" at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church's national assembly.

Delegates to the meeting voted to "receive" a policy paper on gender-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. That means church officials can propose experimental liturgies with alternative phrasings for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.

"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chair Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during Monday's debate on the Trinity.

The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to refer the paper back for further study.

A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity should still be used, but added that Presbyterians also should seek "fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God" to "expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder."

One reason is that language limited to the Father and Son "has been used to support the idea that God is male and that men are superior to women," the panel said.

Conservatives responded that the church should stick close to the way God is named in the Bible and noted that Jesus' most famous prayer was addressed to "Our Father." --

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  • Public Discussion (28)
RadicalCentrist

Well, not being Catholics, I suppose they can change the Trinity if they like.

How about Big Daddy, Junior, and the Spook? No... too gender-biased.

Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary? Too cold.

Big Mama, Inferior Male Offspring, and Messing With You?

Let's help them out, Newsvine. What should the new names be?

  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:17 AM EDT
_Von_

How about Big Daddy, Junior, and the Spook?

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

  • 7 votes
#1.1 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:18 AM EDT
sophie joe

How about Thesis, Antithesis and Synthesis to give it a 19thC dialectical motor?
Or Body, Speech and Mind to honour the postmodern middleclass thrill with Vajrayana Buddhism?
Language is inadequte to the hugeness of the mystery. Any trinity based on Awe and Process and Wonder is ok with me.

  • 4 votes
#1.2 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:23 PM EDT
Mykola Bilokonsky

Shock and Awe, with War Crimes floating around ambiguously but never really materializing? ;)

  • 3 votes
#1.3 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:56 PM EDT
AKG

Would I be violating your copyright if I print myself a "Big Daddy, Junior, and the Spook" T-shirt?

In response to the news itself, I'm a liberal pluralist Christian, but this is about the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:56 PM EDT
RadicalCentrist

Hmmm. Tell you what. Email me at fruvous (at) reddra.com and we'll talk. :)

  • 2 votes
#1.5 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:21 PM EDT
The Filipino

yomma, yoppa, yogreasygreasygramma

  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:22 PM EDT
Reply
KyleN

So now it's not PC for Jesus to have been male so it'll be redefined away as the androgynous Jesus? That is decidedly odd.

I've always thought it was fairly gender neutral because I've thought of Spirit as the female half and the fact Jesus was born male makes the middle not a generalization but a fact thus leaving you with a family of sorts with the Father, the Spirit and their Son :) Probably also not a popular sentiment with many church goers though.

  • 5 votes
Reply#2 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:29 AM EDT
Etaoin Shrdlu

I think Rock, Paper, and Scissors match up with the original three quite nicely.

  • 12 votes
Reply#3 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:54 AM EDT
Leftist

You took my joke.

  • 3 votes
#3.1 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:45 AM EDT
Elliot Vos

..and mine...

  • 1 vote
#3.2 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:57 PM EDT
Reply
Cassandra

The Power, The Actual, The Spirit?

  • 5 votes
Reply#4 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:19 AM EDT
merrydeath

I really like this image. It seems to say what we're actually saying when we say F, S, and HG.

The power is the movement behind existence -- the creation of all that is, the actual is the presence of a compassionate divine in our beautiful and chaotic world that sorely needs ministers of compassion and presence, and the spirit is that tangible yet ethereal quality of life and community that allows us to relate to one another with love and mutual respect.

Thanks. :)

  • 3 votes
#4.1 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:43 PM EDT
Cassandra

Well, you said what I was thinking much more clearly than I could have.
So, thank you!

  • 1 vote
#4.2 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:51 PM EDT
Reply
merrydeath

My experience has been that most churches that are trying to avoid the patriarchal language are not averse to the maleness of Jesus but only the maleness of God. We will often use the phrase Creator, Christ, and Holy Spirit.

However, as we are post-resurrection communities and Christ no longer known "in the flesh", his gender is no longer decidedly male either and it is fully appropriate to use either male or female imagery to refer to Christ (where as references to the person of Jesus should maintain gender specificity).

I am glad to hear that the General Assembly of the PC(USA) is open to this conversation, it is about time.

Personally, my understanding of the Trinity is that it describes various aspects/manifestations of the divine presence. God is that presence which imbues all of creation. Christ is that aspect of the divine that we recognize in others. The Holy Spirit is that which we experience personally and allows us to see the divine presence in others. If you experience the divine in me, that is Christ. If I experience it in myself, it's the Holy Spirit. I am sure this doesn't really clarify anything but I find it meaningful and it is a work in progress.

  • 4 votes
Reply#5 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:38 PM EDT
diggityDawg

I must say, not being a Christian (I'm Jewish), VERY nicely put! Your last paragraph, in particular, really resonated with me. Thanks.

  • 2 votes
#5.1 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:23 PM EDT
Elliot Vos

Well put, indeed. I encourage to you to further develop those thoughts; you're off to a good start.

A week before Fathers' Day my church invited a guest preacher to speak about women and overcoming sexism in the Church as part of a sermon series on the Da Vinci Code. Her main point was that God transcends our human notions of gender roles. God is not male, female, nor is God some mix of both. God is instead the essence of being. God is. Yahweh (or Jehovah), God's most sacred name, is derived from the Hebrew word to be. The most accurate translation would be "The I Am."

If any of you are interested in the sermon, you can listen to the audio. Also, you can check out the entire sermon series or our podcast.

  • 2 votes
#5.2 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:19 PM EDT
talking monkey

i like that merrydeath, it reminds me of the whole "Atman" idea in Brahmanism, as a progressive christian I'm all for this type of thought...the more Christianity can evolve into a real spiritual practice and not a dogmatic weekly ritual...the better.

  • 3 votes
#5.3 - Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:01 AM EDT
Reply
Kirsten Spitzner

Mother, Child and Womb sounds like an anti-choice campaign in the making. I'm not buying that this choice of words has anything to do with the gender equality issue. We are talking about a church that in my area that does not allow for a woman to wear anything besides a long skirt regardless of the weather, and I'm supposed to believe that statement is in the name of equality?

I do like merrydeath's comment. I think it is very sensible.

  • 3 votes
Reply#6 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:56 PM EDT
RadicalCentrist

Remember, if you can call them anti-choice, they can call you anti-life.

  • 3 votes
#6.1 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:23 PM EDT
Cassandra

And they would be oversimplifying and using propaganda in an underhanded way if they do so!

  • 1 vote
#6.2 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:53 PM EDT
Reply
JustinPM

Mario, Link and the Excitebike Guy. Amen.

  • 1 vote
Reply#7 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:46 PM EDT
hid

Well according to Sura 5:116 of the Quran states that it is "Father, Son and Mary". How come that one never stuck with Christianity? Maybe because it is not in the bible. What is in the bible? In Matthew 3:9 the greek word Pathvr is used to describe Abraham as our 'father'. And when referring to Herod the king it also uses Pathvr (Mt. 3:9). Virtually every time the Father God is referred to the same word Pathvr which is distinctly male in Greek and in the contexts of the rest of the bible. Ultimately God is the creator and we are all created in God's image and God has no sex because he existed before gender. But why make up other descriptors clearly not found in the text that Christians claim to base the religion off of? They can go ahead and change it to Mother, Child and Womb but don't claim that it is a religion based on biblical truths.

  • 1 vote
Reply#8 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:49 PM EDT
Elliot Vos

Actually, although I'm not a huge fan of the "Mother, Child and Womb" so-called trinity, there are multiple references in the Bible to God being like a mother to us--not to mention the "born again" language that many people are fond of nowadays.

  • 1 vote
#8.1 - Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:04 PM EDT
nixfu

Yeah well, Surah 47:4 tells muslims to chop the heads off of any non-muslems..
Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded.

How come that one never stuck with Christianity? It sure stuck with islam.

And then there is Surah 9:73
Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway.

Of course there are just so darn many good verses to live our lives by just like these in the Quran, it would take many many web pages to list them all.

Here is a short list of some highlights

This message paid for the by "The Religion of Peace(tm)".

  • 2 votes
#8.2 - Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:51 AM EDT
talking monkey

"And then there is Surah 9:73 Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway"

Sounds alot like what fundmentalist Christians believe. So I guess it did stick with Christians.

  • 2 votes
#8.3 - Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:01 AM EDT
Reply
pedagogus

Why not just translate the scriptures and let them stand on their own merit?

  • 1 vote
Reply#9 - Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:37 AM EDT
talking monkey

Or why not just write a new book? One that doesn't involve spooky language and miracles or aliens and the planet Kolob. (that's for the Mormons)

Most people can't identify with old religious symbolism...does anyone know what its like to sacrifice an animal? Does being washed in the blood of the lamb make any sense anymore? Lots of people 2000 years ago knew what it meant to literally be washed in bull's or lamb's blood for the remission of sins. (we call those people pagans)

We need a new Jesus. Not a new Christ...we need the same Christ...but a new body for Christ to inhabit. So I call upon all viners to ask that holy Mom or Dad you pray to to give us a new one...an Ipod Jesus. And his new gospel shall be in blog or podcast format!

  • 2 votes
Reply#10 - Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:51 AM EDT
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